The Greatest Tragedy
When one considers all of the suffering in New Orleans and the rest of the Gulf Coast due to Hurricane Katrina, it is difficult to avoid being overwhelmed by feelings of sadness and woe. Most of those same emotions were evoked this past December when the tsunami took approximately 200,000 lives in Southeast Asia.In just a few days, many will remember another event which brought grief and indescribable sorrow to untold millions. This Sunday is the fourth anniversary of the historic September 11th attacks on New York City and Washington D.C., regarded as one of the greatest national tragedies in American history.
While considering these horrific events, we should also consider a far greater tragedy, indeed, the greatest tragedy that there is. Every day approximately 150,000 people die. Whether by accident, murder, or illness - whether young, old, or somewhere in between - on average almost 2 people reach the end of their life every single second. Death, however, is not the greatest tragedy. Where the majority of these souls end up after death is far, far greater.
Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matt. 7:13-14, NIV). According to Jesus, only a few will find eternal life... Only a few will end up in heaven.
If the majority of those who die every day, and the majority of all people whom have ever lived end up suffering for eternity in the place known as hell, what could be more tragic?... The greatest tragedy of all is the fact that every one of those people could have been saved from spending eternity in that place, had they turned from their sins and trusted in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior...
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God... Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him" (John 3:16-21, 36, NIV).
posted by James Rondon @ 5:29 PM
48 comments
48 Comments:
Amen.
So, I assume that you disagree with Edward Fudge and AL Maxey on whether there is eternal punishment?
I agree with Jesus, and those things which God has revealed in His word, through the Holy Spirit.
"I agree with Jesus, and those things which God has revealed in His word, through the Holy Spirit."
Yes, my friend, but you have the responsibility of studying what that Word *actually* is teaching!!!!
So are you saying that AL and Edward don't?, or are you being somewhat cryptic as in "if they are right, praise GOd, let me see it and if not, God help me reject it?
Another interesting question is this: do any of us possess a total openness to GOd in our interpretation of His Word? Or is there in each of us, perhaps unknown to ourselves, a certain amount of resisitance still to His Truth? Does our sin affect our interpretations in ways that we may not be aware of?
Who is totally submissive?
Bless you, James!
Robert
Anonymous wrote: "Yes, my friend, but you have the responsibility of studying what that Word *actually* is teaching!!!! So are you saying that AL and Edward don't?, or are you being somewhat cryptic as in "if they are right, praise GOd, let me see it and if not, God help me reject it?"
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If they are right, praise God!...
If they are not, praise God!
Good questions, Robert... May God grant such a submissive spirit to you, and to me.
"He giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up." (James 4:6-10, KJV).
So do you have a stance on the issue of future punishments? I know that it is very intense and can lead to depression if we focus too much on it, so be careful, James.
Robert
Hello Robert. I do have a stance on future punishments. I believe that those not found in Christ on the Day of Judgment will be cast into the lake of fire, and will suffer for eternity. I believe that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever, and that they will have no rest day nor night.
This article, however, was not about the doctrine of eternal punishment. It was about the great tragedy that has, and will befall literally billions of souls. It was a call to those who are in Christ to consider the lost, and to do something about the greatest tragedy that there is...
In Isa. 34:9, 10, the prophet, speaking of the land of Idumea, says: "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever: From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.''
I believe that this city was destroyed, yet scripture says "forever? What should I conclude in honesty?
I understand the urgency, but wanted to show you this verse in the OT that uses the same kind of language, apparently for an event that has already occurred!
Robert
Hello Robert. I know the verse, and am familiar with the arguments for, and against annhilation. Considering all of what is written, especially what Jesus said, I cannot conclude that the wicked will not suffer endless punishment.
Ponder this, what are the consequences of the doctrine of annhilation? How does said teaching affect the saved, and the unsaved? Now ponder, what are the consequences of the doctrine of eternal suffering? How does said teaching affect the saved, and the unsaved?
James,
We still need to interpret that scripture as submissive servants of God. Moving to another matter does nothing to further the work of interpreting this verse.. So before I deal with your new question, I refuse to ignore the responsibility of dealing will *all* scripture. Nothing should be passed over!
Blessings,
Robert
Robert, it is not "passing over" a Scripture to ask questions pertinent to the issue under discussion, nor are questions necessarily movement to another matter, especially when they have everything to do with the matter at hand...
The passage in Isaiah deals with the permanence of the destruction of Idumea. Thus, the use of the word "forever". The rest of the context demonstrates this with further description of the land, who will possess it, etc.
The language that is used in other places to describe the fate of the wicked also has the resonance of permanency. However, the Scripture reveals more than just the notion of permanancy with regard to their end. It also describes the idea of punishment, torment, suffering, and its continuance.
If we are going to understand what God has to say on this matter, we must consider all of what He has revealed. We must also ask ourselves many questions, including, how does what I understand affect the saved, and the unsaved?
We know that the smoke did not go up "forever".
James,
It *is* "passing over" if one "leaves blank" a certain scripture, absolutely.
When one viewpoint does not give its interpretation for a verse that is proposed, one wonders why the request was left blank.
For instance, if you were in a debate about, say, baptism, and the other guy gave no interpretation of Acts 2:38 but left it blank, and diverted to a related issue, wouldn't you be a bit less confident in their position?
Each verse must be interpreted well by a position for it to to have merit. I see that you have presented yours at this time- thank you!
Blessings, Robert
I commented on the verse, Robert. Are you looking for further commentary?
Sure, what do you have?
Robert
James,
Specifically, why is it that aion and its derivatives many times refer to things that are *not* permanent? What meaning does it have in such verses?
Robert
List some of the verses, and let's discuss them.
Jonah 2:6
Deuteronomy 15:16-17
Hey James, miss ya on Spurgeon! It's been almost 2 weeks! Anyways, just thought I'd offer a few verses that speak to this subject of annihilationism for bro. Robert. Some important questions have been raised, but really: What saith the scriptures?
Matthew 25:41,46
Then shall he (God) say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: vs. 46- And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Mark 9:43-48
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Let's not forget other verses making mention of eternal judgement such as Hebrews 6:2, Jude 1:7, and Rev. 20:10.
Taking scripture for what it really says- damnation is eternal.
Take care James and keep up the great work!
Your bro in Christ,
Daniel Allen
www.spurgeon.us
Daniel,
You said: "some important questions have been raised, but really: What saith the scriptures?" Which of the questions that I brought up was not realated to the scriptures? Are you paying attention?
Robert
Jonah 2:6 - "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." (KJV).
In this passage, Jonah is praying to the Lord from inside the belly of the fish. As he is praying, he says, "the earth with her bars was about me forever". The NIV renders this, "the earth beneath barred me in forever".
The Hebrew word that is used here for the word "forever", is "`owlam". It is used both literally, and figuratively. It can be used to express something of endless, continuous, or indefinite length, etc.
In Jonah's case, he is most likely speaking both literally, and figuratively. One must consider his perspective - he said what he said while inside the belly of the fish. To him, there was no way out. From his perspective, the bars around him were "endless" in that they were "indefinite". Also, he was barred in "forever" in that there did not appear to be any way out.
Deuteronomy 15:16-17 - "And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee; Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise." (KJV).
"For ever" in this passage is also translated from the Hebrew word "`owlam". Again, it is used both literally, and figuratively, and can be used to express something of endless, continuous, or indefinite length, etc.
In this passage, we have a servant voluntarily becoming someone's servant "for ever". The NIV renders this part of the passage as, "and he will become your servant for life."
Perspective is again important when dealing with this passage. The servant will surely die, which must be taken into consideration. Thus, the idea being expressed here seems to have to do with "continuous", and "indefinite" regarding time of service.
The fact that a word can be used both literally, and figuratively, does not render its use "for ever" literal, or "for ever" figurative.
Also, the fact that a word can be used to express different meanings does not mean that we can just pick and choose its meaning based on our theological pre-disposition. Context must always be considered, both immediate, and otherwise.
Hey Daniel. Thanks for writing, and for your contribution. I haven't been over at Spurgeon for awhile, mostly due to time. I have barely been able to keep up with my blog, as of late... If the Lord is willing, however, I will see you there more soon...
"Daniel,
You said: "some important questions have been raised, but really: What saith the scriptures?" Which of the questions that I brought up was not realated to the scriptures? Are you paying attention?
Robert"
Yes, Robert, I am paying attention. Here is one important question you asked- and I again reply with 'what saith the scriptures?'
"So do you have a stance on the issue of future punishments?"
I never said your question was unrelated to scripture, but if you hold to an annihilationist standpoint you apparently deny many very blatant scriptures that came from the mouth of Jesus Christ himself.
Regards,
Daniel Allen
www.spurgeon.us
Daniel,
In reference to my question to James: "So do you have a stance on the issue of future punishments?", you replied: Some important questions have been raised, but really: What saith the scriptures?
I don't see how asking James about his interpretation of scripture can be put in opposition to your question "what saith the scriptures". The whole point here is to learn from James and to challenge James as to "what saith the scripture". Putting my intentions in opposition seems a bit bizarre.....
It is also true that to simply accept Daniel Allen's interpretation of scripture as being equivalent to "what the scripture saith" would be for me to disobey God, as I would be tacitly granting to you interpetive authority. Now if you have some backup for your views, and have refutations for the annihilationists' interpretations, then let's hear them, but simply asserting it in your own name is a waste of time for me since you have no intrinsic authority...
Blessings
Robert
PS- I am still studying the issue, so I am not really totally convinced either way.
James,
You said: '"For ever" in this passage is also translated from the Hebrew word "`owlam". Again, it is used both literally, and figuratively, and can be used to express something of endless, continuous, or indefinite length, etc.'
In the case of Matthew 24, it is often suggested (by some pretty weighty scholars) that aionios is defined as "pertaining to a period of unending duration,
without end,". This, it seems to me" is not the same as to say that something is eternal. Any thoughts?
Robert
I guess it depends on your definition of "eternal". It would also depend upon the context with which the word is used.
When dealing with the "aionios" and its variants, we should also consider the fact that the word is used to modify "life", "salvation" and "redemption", as well as "damnation", "destruction", "fire" and "punishment".
James,
Well the fact is that some very well-educated translators recognize that it can simply mean: pertaining to an age or "of the age to come" as I believe that the Peshitta version has it. You need a better verse if you are going to establish unending punishment. None of your examples really alter this fact.
PEace,
Robert
A better verse, Robert? What verse, in particular, are you referring to?
By the way, I have not really stated any case. I have only made a few observations, and tried, my best, to answer your questions.
As far as "aionios" and its variations referring to an "age to come" (aka the "eonic" argument), when did we start that discussion?
Lastly, regarding my examples, do you have the hope of life in an "age to come", that may or may not be everlasting? Or does your trust in Christ lead you to the hope of life that will never end?
"Lastly, regarding my examples, do you have the hope of life in an "age to come", that may or may not be everlasting? Or does your trust in Christ lead you to the hope of life that will never end?'
The resurrection body that He is going t give me will be imperishable.....
Anybody home :) ?
I should ask the same thing :)
Uh, to be fair James, the ball is in your court as I was the last to reply......what is your response?
You still have not answered my questions from before. I will remind you, in case they were forgotten:
"A better verse, Robert? What verse, in particular, are you referring to?
By the way, I have not really stated any case. I have only made a few observations, and tried, my best, to answer your questions.
As far as "aionios" and its variations referring to an "age to come" (aka the "eonic" argument), when did we start that discussion?"
James asked:
As far as "aionios" and its variations referring to an "age to come" (aka the "eonic" argument), when did we start that discussion?"
James,
Isn't that obvious(I mean this question sincerely)? It is just a few verses back.....
Anonymous said...
James,
Specifically, why is it that aion and its derivatives many times refer to things that are *not* permanent? What meaning does it have in such verses?
Robert
10:35 AM
James Rondon
James Rondon said...
List some of the verses, and let's discuss them.
8:53 PM
James,
You in fact invited me to have this discussion!
It's pretty clear that there is a breakdown in communication here. Regardless, I still want to remind you that you have yet to supply me with the verse that you alluded to earlier when you said:
"You need a better verse if you are going to establish unending punishment."
Again, this may be also due to a breakdown in communication. Please refer me to that verse, and maybe we can get back on track (whatever that might be)...
By the way, due to the fact that this thread has gotten so far away from the original message of the article itself, I would like to restate what "martyr complex" wrote at the beginning:
"I pray that many that read this message will consider the tragic consequences of what dying without the Christ means. When a man dies without the Savior, they die in their sins. There is no second chance. There is only a certainty of everlasting torment, everlasting hell fire; and everlasting destruction.
The tragedy is that even though God made our provision in Christ, men choose to reject Him."
James,
I said: "You need a better verse if you are going to establish unending punishment."
You seem to be asking for that "better verse"..no, this is what I ask of you!
You mentioned the Revelations passage. I don't think that it solves the issue, therefore "you need a better verse".
Does that make more sense?
Robert
Thanks for the clarification. So, I take it that this was what you were referring to?...:
"I believe that those not found in Christ on the Day of Judgment will be cast into the lake of fire, and will suffer for eternity. I believe that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever, and that they will have no rest day nor night."
Although I did not specifically cite any verse or verses, I used language almost identical to that found in Revelation chapters 14 and 20.
You asked for my stance, and that is what I gave you... You have yet to prove that I need a "better verse".
I may be worng here, but it seems as if same language is used in the OT (Isaiah) for an event that occurred long ago.
The language is not identical, nor does the Isaiah passage prove that future punishment of the wicked will not be eternal.
The phrase "they have no rest day nor night" in Revelation chapter 14 is something that modifies the phrase "and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever", and needs to be contended with.
Aside from this, there are other passages which point to punishment being unending. According to Edward Fudge and many "annhilationists", however, God's nature is not consistent with eternal punishment.
But how long is the punishment, then, according to Fudge and others? Is it for a moment? Is is for a few years? Is it for a thousand years? How long? Or is there no punishment, and no suffering at all? If there is any type of suffering, as a result of punishment, doesn't that go against Fudge's claim regarding the nature of God?
Many have, in fact, asserted that there will be no punishment, and have used the same type of thinking that Fudge uses to arrive at their conclusion. They have rendered every passage as metaphoric, and in doing so, have called into question much more than just the punishment of the wicked...
The language is not identical, nor does the Isaiah passage prove that future punishment of the wicked will not be eternal.
Mere assertion (isn't it an echo of Isaiah), I need substantiation. "James Rondon says so won't do.....
:)
The phrase "they have no rest day nor night" in Revelation chapter 14 is something that modifies the phrase "and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever", and needs to be contended with.
"They have no rest day nor night" doesn't say that it is unending.
Aside from this, there are other passages which point to punishment being unending. According to Edward Fudge and many "annhilationists", however, God's nature is not consistent with eternal punishment.
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You have to bring those verses up.
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But how long is the punishment, then, according to Fudge and others? Is it for a moment? Is is for a few years? Is it for a thousand years? How long? Or is there no punishment, and no suffering at all? If there is any type of suffering, as a result of punishment, doesn't that go against Fudge's claim regarding the nature of God?
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I recall reading that it would include suffering until annihilation. Varying degress of punishment has some scriptural backing as well. Fudge's view of God's nature is about the "unendingness" of the punishment, not punishment itself. Do you see this as the equivalent of the electric chair for eternity? How are you envisioning this?
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Many have, in fact, asserted that there will be no punishment, and have used the same type of thinking that Fudge uses to arrive at their conclusion. They have rendered every passage as metaphoric, and in doing so, have called into question much more than just the punishment of the wicked...
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I don't agree with that, nor do Fudge or Maxey as I recall.
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Check this out:
http://www.zianet.com/maxey/reflx74.htm
James, I think you are asking the right questions,
Robert
9Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into (A)brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10It will (B)not be quenched night or day;
Its (C)smoke will go up forever
From (D)generation to generation it will be desolate;
(E)None will pass through it forever and ever.
Pretty similar in its language concerning forever, night and day, etc.
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